Advice on the better equipment.

My favorite tobacco-flavored liquid is El Toro Guevara - I order it in a 24mg strength (anything higher than 24mg for any liquid is dangerous to use directly; it's intended for folks who mix their own juice) in 60ml bottles:

EL TORO GUEVARA 60ml

The iClear 30s is a top-coil clearomizer, and with the VTR at about 8-9 watts (or about 4.3 volts, if you're using it in voltage mode) with a 2.0-ohm atomizer head, it produces a warm vape that really unlocks the flavor of the Guevara and produces a great throat hit.

The Guevara is also good using the 400mAh 'shorty' batteries with the eGo Megal Dual-Coil XL cartomizers. Not quite as warm as the VTR, but very satisfying. It's strong enough that I'm not tempted to smoke a real cigarette even when inebriated, which is the acid test for vapers.

;>

 

That's 3 batteries from those copy ce5 kits I have gone through today.

My order from Micky arrives on Tuesday, hopefully, and this kit can be retired.

And I get some Halo juices with it as well. Really looking forward to that. All I have had up until now was Liqua and Destiny. Oh and an unnamed brand that came with the kits. All disgusting.

 

Not entirely correct mate. Although I personally Vape about 18mg these days ( started on 24mg) I know a fair number of people who Vape 36 mg and higher. The new Voke Ecig is sold in 45mg for new switchers to act similar to a normal cigarette.

Dave Dorn; who used to be a 60 a day man; from VTTV sometimes vapes at 54 mg and I know there are others out there who do the same when stressed. Many vendors sell 36mg in their main ranges in the UK. They would not bother to make it a main range item unless they were selling a lot of it.

As I said, I personally only get 54 or 72mg for DIY mixing purposes but there are plenty who use much much higher safely.

 

This is dangerous, as such a high concentration of nicotine can lead to arterial constriction - doubly dangerous if one suffers from hypertension, as so many ex-smokers do.

There are all kinds of people in the world who do all kinds of stupid, dangerous things - but that doesn't mean that we should hold them us as exemplars. Vaping juice of that concentration is just flat-out nuts.

 

A 45mg/ml is perfectly safe, you just have to not vape as much. It would suit someone who only ran out to smoke a few times a day while at work. Conversely, you wouldn't go and chain vape 24mg/ml on quad microcoils, you'd vomit.

 

I agree with you, any over 24mg/ml aint smart, but it relly depends on how much juice you use as it is the overall intake of nicotin per hour/day that counts, overuse of any nicotin dosage is dangerous, so if we vape alot of ml juice a day go low on the nicotin.

 

Well today was the day.

My order from Micky's has arrived!!!!!

Slight mix up with the order in that I changed it, at some point in the process, because of lack of stock but missed that I hadn't removed it from the order and paid for extra coils that weren't in stock.

For those of you that are new to this site and ordering from Micky, as I am, ONE message and it was fixed. No hassles at all. Thank you Micky for that and also for the help and very efficient way that you operate.

Just finished familiarizing myself with the mod's and tanks, loading them and getting the right setting for my tastes, and I really MUST say that I am over the moon with my purchases.

Three halo juices, Tiki, belgian cocoa and midnight apple and some small Freelife juices to try, Minty chocolate, strawberry and cappucino. I got the Freelife because I have read a few people like them and to be honest, Mickey had no MBV or GLV in stock.

The difference from the copy CE5 units I was using and the only cheap juice I could get here in Pattaya is beyond staggering.

Without steeping all the halo juices a really nice, although the Belgian chocolate is a bit on teh sweet side at the moment. Perhaps that will change. The other two are great already. HAven't tried any of the Freelife juice yet.

To give an idea of the difference, I have been almost chain vaping, all day, for three days straight and felt very little effect and was getting very little vapor either. I was also getting a film of, I assume glycerine on my hands that was back within 20 minutes of washing them.

Now I cannot talk about the glycerine yet, but in 20-25 minutes of slow vaping while I set everything up in the tanks and mods and tasting the juices, I could really feel the nicotine rush. It was like chain smoking 3 18mg analogues in 5 minutes.

All in all very impressed.

 

good to hear you are enjoying it. now go off and spread the word....

 

Already doing it, mate.

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Stuff the steeping. These juices are too nice and all I have got. Have to get some more juce tolet it sit for a while.

 

Just for info regarding the above


Guest Editorial


How much nicotine kills a human? Tracing back the generally accepted lethal dose to dubious self-experiments in the nineteenth century


Bernd Mayer1


(1)Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, Karl-Franzens University Graz, Univ.-Platz 2, 8010 Graz, Austria







Bernd Mayer

Email: mayer@uni-graz.at


Received: 26 August 2013

Accepted: 5 September 2013

Published online: 4 October 2013


Without Abstract


The human toxicity of nicotine has become increasingly relevant in the past couple of years through marketing of new nicotine-containing products, such as smokeless tobacco and liquids for electronic nicotine delivery systems (electronic cigarettes) that are freely available in most countries. Standard textbooks, databases, and safety sheets consistently state that the lethal dose for adults is 60 mg or less (30–60 mg), leading to safety warnings that ingestion of five cigarettes or 10 ml of a dilute nicotine-containing solution could kill an adult. The 60-mg dose would correspond to an oral LD50 of around 0.8 mg/kg, a dose that is considerably smaller than the values determined for laboratory animals, which are ranging from 3.3 (mice) to more than 50 mg/kg (rats) (Hayes 1982).

Although an LD50 of 0.8 mg/kg would implicate that the toxicity of nicotine is similar to or even higher than that of cyanide, fatal nicotine intoxications are relatively rare, and there are countless records of subjects who survived consumption of nicotine in amounts far higher than 60 mg (Larson et al. 1961). The most drastic example is probably survival of a suicide attempt with 4 g of pure nicotine (Schmidt 1931). While this is certainly an exceptional case, in which the amount of bioavailable nicotine was markedly reduced by vomiting, ingestion of tobacco or nicotine gums at doses up to 6 mg/kg nicotine was reported to evoke symptoms of intoxication without causing death (Malizia et al. 1983; Smolinske et al. 1988). These and many other literature reports on nonfatal nicotine intoxications are hardly compatible with a lethal dose of 60 mg or less.

Several detailed reviews are available on fatal nicotine intoxications caused by either suicidal intent or accidents, latter mainly resulting from misusage of nicotine-containing solutions marketed as pesticides (Esser and Kühn 1933; Larson et al. 1961; Maehly and Bonnichsen 1963; Tiess and Nagel 1966; Hayes 1982; Corkery et al. 2010; Solarino et al. 2010). The postmortem data reviewed by Maehly and Bonnichsen (1963) and more recently by Corkery et al. (2010) and Solarino et al. (2010) revealed minimal nicotine blood levels of 2 mg/L, but rapid decline of blood nicotine after death (Sanchez et al. 1996) may have led to underestimation of the actual lethal concentration in delayed autopsies.

Despite these uncertainties and the complex pharmacokinetics of nicotine (Hukkanen et al. 2005), a rough estimate of the amount of ingested nicotine from postmortem analyses of blood levels appears feasible. Smoking a cigarette results in uptake of approximately 2 mg of nicotine and gives rise to mean arterial plasma concentrations of about 0.03 mg/L (30 ng/ml) (Gourlay and Benowitz 1997). Based on 20 % oral bioavailability of nicotine (Hukkanen et al. 2005) and assuming linear kinetics, an oral dose of 60 mg would give rise to a plasma concentration of about 0.18 mg/L. The literature reports on fatal nicotine intoxications suggest that the lower limit of lethal nicotine blood concentrations is about 2 mg/L, corresponding to 4 mg/L plasma, a concentration that is around 20-fold higher than that caused by intake of 60 mg nicotine. Thus, a careful estimate suggests that the lower limit causing fatal outcomes is 0.5–1 g of ingested nicotine, corresponding to an oral LD50 of 6.5–13 mg/kg. This dose agrees well with nicotine toxicity in dogs, which exhibit responses to nicotine similar to humans (Matsushima et al. 1995).

The mismatch between the generally accepted lethal dose and documented cases of nicotine intoxication raises the question for the genuine source of the 60-mg dose. Literature and Internet searches provided circular and often misleading references to databases or textbooks, which either simply state the dose without reference or refer to another textbook and so on. To give an example, the following statement is found on the webpage of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC - Page Not Found “The fatal human dose has been estimated to be about 50–60 mg (Lazutka et al. 1969).” However, Lazutka et al. describe the determination of LD50 values for mice and rats and do not even mention human toxicity (Lazutka et al. 1969). The second paper cited on this Web site (Lehman 1949) was actually published in 1949, and neither provides any supporting data (Lehmann 1949). Screening the German literature published before World War II eventually revealed references to a textbook published in 1906 by Rudolf Kobert (1854–1918), a renowned pharmacologist and pioneer of toxicology in Germany. In the chapter on nicotine of his Lehrbuch der Intoxikationen, Kobert makes the following statement (Kobert 1906):

Vom reinen Nik. ist die lethale Dosis ebenfalls schwer zu bestimmen, da es sich an der Luft leicht etwas zersetzt und andererseits meistens mehr oder weniger wasserhaltig ist; doch nach den üblen Zufällen [sic!], die bei mehreren Experimentatoren schon 0.002–0.004 g hervorbrachten, ist sie wohl sicher nicht höher als 0.06 g.

English translation (by B.M.)

The lethal dose of pure nicotine is also difficult to determine, because it easily decomposes a bit and, on the other hand, mostly contains more or less water; however, in accordance with the severe symptoms evoked in several experimenters by 0.002–0.004 g it is certainly not going to be higher than 0.06 g.

It is beyond any doubt that this short, not particularly convincing paragraph represents the genuine origin of the lethal nicotine dose we still refer to more than 100 years later. What kind of severe symptoms did the experimenters develop that led Kobert to his momentous conclusion? In his book he refers the reader to self-experiments performed by Dworzack and Heinrich, which the Austrian pharmacologist Carl Damian von Schroff (1802–1887) comprehensively described in a Pharmacology textbook (Schroff 1856). Kobert presents a copy of Schroff’s report in condensed and modernized style (Kobert 1906):

Die Sympt. sind durch Selbstversuche von Reil und später von Dworzack und Heinrich (unter D. Schroff) genau festgestellt worden. Die letztgenannten Autoren empfanden nach 1–4 mg Nik. Brennen im Munde, Kratzen im Rachen, vermehrte Speichelabsonderung, dann vom Magen ausgehend ein Gefühl von Wärme, die sich über die Brust und den Kopf bis in die Zehen- und Fingerspitzen verbreitete. Nachher wurden die Genannten aufgeregt, litten an Kopfschmerz, Schwindel, Betäubung, undeutlichem Sehen und Hören, an Lichtscheu, Beklommenheit, Trockenheit im Schlunde, Kälte in den Extremitäten, Ructus, Flatulenz, Nausea, Erbrechen und Stuhldrang. Die Atmung wurde beschleunigt und angestrengt; die Pulsfrequenz nahm anfänglich zu und zwar umso mehr, je größer die Dosis war; später aber wechselte reglos Zunahme und Abnahme derselben. Nach Verlauf von 45 Minuten wurden die Experimentatoren ohnmächtig. Bei dem einen kam es zu 2 Stunden anhaltenden klonischen Krämpfen, besonders der Atemmuskeln, zu Zittern der Extremitäten und Schütteln des ganzen Körpers. Nach eingetretener Besserung blieb doch Abgeschlagenheit, Schläfrigkeit und trostlose Stimmung noch 3 Tage lang zurück.

English translation (by B.M.)

The symptoms were determined exactly in self-experiments by Reil and later by Dworzack and Heinrich (under D. Schroff). After 1–4 mg of nicotine, these authors felt a burning sensation in the mouth, scratchy throat, increased saliva excretion, followed by a feeling of warmness emanating from the stomach, which spread over the chest and from the head to the toes and fingertips. Afterwards the subjects became agitated, suffered from headache, dizziness, numbness, cloudy vision and hearing, light sensitivity, anxiety, dryness of the throat, coldness of the limbs, ructus [belch], flatulence, nausea, vomiting and rectal tenesmus. Respiration was accelerated and labored, pulse rate increased initially, and rose directly with the increasing dose; but later rose and fell erratically. After 45 min the experimenters lost consciousness. One of them suffered clonic seizures for 2 h, particularly of the respiratory muscles, also tremors of the limbs and shivering over the whole body. After the initial recovery, feelings of exhaustion, drowsiness and bleakness remained for 3 days.

Some of these effects resemble typical symptoms of nicotine overdosing, but 1–4 mg of oral nicotine will certainly not evoke the severe adverse effects described, such as clonic seizures and loss of consciousness. Curiously, Kobert mentioned the Pharmacologist Wilhelm Reil but ignored Reil’s account on very mild symptoms caused by self-ingestion of up to around 7.5 mg of nicotine (15 drops of a solution of 1 drop of nicotine in 100 drops of alcohol) (Reil 1857). Indeed, more recent studies have shown that intravenous administration of up to 5 mg of nicotine, corresponding to 25 mg oral, i.e., 50 % of the allegedly lethal dose, led to only minor adverse effects, such as coughing and nausea (Henningfield et al. 1983; Gourlay and Benowitz 1997). Thus, Kobert estimated the lethal dose of nicotine on the basis of highly dubious self-experiments performed in the mid of the nineteenth century while ignoring conflicting data. His excellent reputation as a leading scholar in toxicology has apparently led to uncritical acceptance and citation of the 60-mg dose by contemporary fellows and successive researchers.

The discrepancy between the 60-mg dose and published cases of nicotine intoxication has been noted previously (Matsushima et al. 1995; Metzler et al. 2005), but nonetheless, this value is still accepted without scrutiny and taken as the basis for worldwide safety regulations of tobacco and other nicotine-containing products. Nicotine is a toxic compound that should be handled with care, but the frequent warnings of potential fatalities caused by ingestion of small amounts of tobacco products or diluted nicotine-containing solutions are unjustified and need to be revised in light of overwhelming data indicating that more than 0.5 g of oral nicotine is required to kill an adult.


Acknowledgments

I thank Christa Kern from my department for invaluable assistance in literature search and Dr. Ellen Zechner (Department of Molecular Biosciences, Karl-Franzens University Graz, Austria) for her help with the translation of the antiquated German text. Support from the Austrian Science Fund (P24005 and P24946) is gratefully acknowledged.




For further reading on the subject

Nicotine lethal dose in humans: a common argument by regulatory authorities, based on poor science

 

Well I have just confused the crap out of myself.

Looking at getting a new MOD, cylindrical this time, and have been looking at the iTaste SVD and 134. Another one that caught my eye, sort of, was the Joytech eVic (Lots of bells and whistles but with smiking memory and c computer link up I have to worry about quality. I know that the SVD and 143 are meant to be good MODS, from loking at reviews on here, but was wondering about alternatives. I don't know brands etc. so I have come to a dead stop. Any ideas? I am happy to spend a bit to get a quality MOD.

Also looking at rebuildable atomizers, I think is the right name. Have sort of seet my heart on the kayfun Lite but availability is a slight issue issue, but if it as good as it appears on to be, from this site and reviews I have looked at, I will just have to wait for it. Again confused as hell with everything on the market claiming to be as good as everything else. Once more, any ideas?

 

Trying real hard to justify buying the Provari AND the Kayfun lite. hehehe

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Maybe it is just too much to spend at this point in my vaoing. Only been doing it a week or so. lol

 

Funny you mentioned the e-vic. Yesterday I saw a video with one of my fav. reviewers from Switzerland, and he explained why he did so many reviews with stuff from Innokin and not Joyetech. Reason being that he had 2 not functioned e-vics and a new Joyetech mod, that broke down on the third day. Good I did not go into them.

 

if your considering the kayfun, the video below is worth watching

A PBusardo Review - The Kayfun Lite+ and CU Vaping Contest Winner - YouTube